Resisting being jerked around

[shunn]

You thought I was done with Christopher Bigelow's post, but I was only taking a little breather. After declaring that it's probably too late for him to change his ways anyway, even if he wanted a new lifestyle, he makes this judgment:

And it sounds like Bill's dad was a real jerk, so he's got more of an excuse than I do to reject his parents' lifestyle....  [full post]

I have a lot of complicated responses to this. First is regret at the realization that I probably haven't done a good enough job in public at pointing out that my father was not only a jerk while I was growing up. He was sometimes kind, loving, and supportive. He was independent and often questioned authority. He was smart, though he tended to downplay that and fall back on received wisdom and kneejerk responses, and he was unfailingly discliplined, hard-working, and generous. He was also argumentative to a fault, controlling, and psychologically abusive, and his temper was severe. He correction could be violent, but physically it was only ever targeted at our scrawny behinds. He tended to spank first and never ask questions later (though he had pretty much stopped corporal punishment entirely by the time my youngest sisters were growing up). Admitting when he was wrong was not a strength. He did, however, teach me many invaluable lessons, the one I've taken most to heart being one he probably didn't intend—how to think for myself and make up my own mind about what I believe.

He's a complicated man, and he set a lot of contradictory examples for me. Most of all, he was a distinctive individual in sea of conformity. It would have been impossible for me not to have rejected his lifestyle in some way; in fact, rejection was exactly what we were taught. We were encouraged to become whatever we wanted to be (though doctor and lawyer were pushed harder than any other profession), so long as we didn't become teachers like he was. (Inevitably, at least one sibling did exactly that.)

We could argue all day about whether or not my rejection of Mormonism was a direct rejection of my father (and I would say that was only a small component of it), but it remains a fact that I lived a more rigorous Mormon lifestyle, by conscious choice, than practically anyone else I knew right up through the age of about 20. I tried to live like I believed the tenets, even while I fought private doubts that extended all the way back to age four or five (well before I could have made sense of the idea of rebelling against my parents). And still, it wasn't until nearly the age of 28 that I finally made the decision that much of my misery derived from clinging to a set of spiritual beliefs that contradicted what I had come to know about the world intellectually.

If that was a rejection of my parents' lifestyle, then it was also a rejection of the lifestyles of practically everyone I knew. I had no lack of good, kind, loving, generous teachers and friends growing up. I sacrificed many of those connections when I left the church, and it hurt. We have our differences today, but I remain on good terms with my parents. They may wish I'd return to the church, my father probably more tenaciously than my mother, but they haven't rejected me, and I haven't rejected them. They could not be more warm or welcoming to my lapsed Catholic and unlapsed Christian wife. We had our hard years after I left the church, but through love, work, and forgiveness we still manage to act like family.

I hope none of this sounds like an attack on Chris, who is one of the more tolerant and open-minded Mormons I know (a statement that could certainly be read as damning with faint praise). I also know this discussion is not explicitly about religion versus atheism, but it leads me directly to thoughts about the assumptions, both explicit and implicit, that religious people tend to bring to their mental portraits of atheists. That discussion, however, will have to wait a few days, until I have time to take on Ben Stein.

Comments

[jwgh]

When I read that line I thought "Oooh, I don't know that Bills' going to agree 100% with you on that one there." I think that all you say here comes out pretty strongly in your podcast. (Of course I'm not sure if that's where Christopher is getting his impressions.)

[shunn.livejournal.com]

Well, that's a relief, and thanks for saying so. I'm not sure where else that impression could have come from, if not from my memoir and podcast.

[fierymind.livejournal.com]

I'm with jwgh. (how *does* one pronounce that?) I thought you portrayed your dad with some depth, and there were times in your memoir when I felt he was kind of a tragic figure. I also caught your mixture of anger, rebellion, respect, exasperation, and love (and perhaps a hint of pity?) towards your dad.

This has made me think of my mental image of my own dad at various times of my life. As complicated as he is, there were phases when I painted him pretty two-dimensionally in my own mind. It seems like he grows more complex as I age. :P

[shunn.livejournal.com]

Hey, are your "Atheist's Prayer" podcast episodes no longer available?

[pixelfish.livejournal.com]

I have similar issues regarding my parents, who to this day, despite knowing that I was practically the most unrebellious teen ever, despite knowing that I have a brain and know how to use it, persist in seeing my adult life as a rebellion against theirs. (Like you, I'd also say that I lived a fairly orthodox Mormon lifestyle up until about 20. Certainly I read the scriptures more than most of my fellow Mormon kids.)

But as an adult, I'm not rejecting or rebelling against my parents so much as saying, "No!" to the culture that as I see it, done them wrong. And refusing to let that same culture turn me into something I don't want to be.

[shunn.livejournal.com]

Amen.

[lunchboy.livejournal.com]

I say, who needs an excuse to reject their parents' lifestyle?

[quixote317.livejournal.com]

Assumptions like this are one of my pet peeves about theism v.s atheism debates. That I couldn't possibly have made a rational decision to reject religion - I must be rebelling against my [parents|church|society]. It's more then a little patronizing.

The exact same thing came up in the middle of a long thread on Slacktivist and I've been debating whether to get into it there all morning. I think I just needed to vent about it somewhere. Thanks for letting me do it here.

[shunn.livejournal.com]

The amusing thing is that, from our point of view, rejecting religion is the only rational decision!

[phddilly.livejournal.com]

I had a somewhat similar interaction with Chris awhile ago where he made the assumption that I'd left the LDS church to 'save my marriage.' Though I've known Chris for 10 years or so, I thought it odd for him to be making such a bold (and fairly superficial) assumption. After we discussed it awhile I came to think that his assertion was more about his own tenuous position with the church than it was about my choices.

Anyways, I stopped subscribing to his RSS feed after that, feeling that his thoughts weren't particularly interesting to me anymore. I'm still always pleased to run into Chris in person or to hear about his publishing projects, but I feel it's a waste of my time (and his, too) to discuss issues of personal belief (e.g. just because he was miserable living a non-Mormon lifestyle that doesn't mean that everyone who stops believing is equally miserable).

FWIW, that's how I feel about many Mormons these days. Meaning that when they start getting judgmental I just lose interest...

[brezhnev.livejournal.com]

From reading your memoirs, I get the idea that your dad wanted the best for you, though he is a bit old-fashioned and you (like most other young people) had different ideas about what is best.

As for religion, I haven't of course read through to the thrilling conclusion of "The Road to Apostasy", but I'll bet it had little to do with Daddy issues and much to do with logical contradictions and lack of evidence.

[shunn.livejournal.com]

Yes, one day I'll probably finish that story (in fact, it may become a book, depending on what happens with Accidental Terrorist), but I'd say you're on the right track there.

Wow

[(Anonymous)]

Fascinating post. I've felt quite angry about your dad, especially that boyhood erection thing, but I do remember how loving and supportive he was when he came to Canada to help you out. Certainly more complex a character than my offhand comment acknowledged.

When you are in the Motrix and feel that you can and should and must stay there, then there MUST be something wrong with those who leave, and you can't help looking for those reasons--or at least I can't, and I'm sure others in the Motrix can't either, or they're not really in the Motrix, are they. The only other alternative is that there must be something wrong with Mormonism, if it can't live up to all its claims and premises--which it doesn't, if someone can legitimately leave it.

So yeah, that's my impulse--there must be some underlying human flaw in those who leave. A bad dad's one of the better "excuses" I can imagine--or at least, one that I imagine could have helped lead me permanently out, personally. Obviously I can't and shouldn't pretend to know enough about yours or anyone else's situation to judge, which is something I need to be more careful about. But when one's story is publicly published online in any form, I tend to think it's fair game to at least try to think about it and figure it out, even if it becomes more of an academic exercise than an authentic reflection on the actual person under examination, and even if onlookers are repulsed by the stench of the Motrix outlook.

So I'm shutting off RSS on you too then, Jana. Ah, the humanity. Your fabulous flower pictures don't come through my workplace's new filter anyway... I especially liked the ones with the semi-hidden bugs on 'em.

Re: Wow

[shunn.livejournal.com]

Here's the crux, Chris: It doesn't matter whether or not the LDS Church is correct or incorrect. By the Church's own standards, it is always legitimate for someone to leave it. Why? Because of free agency.

If people don't have the choice to leave, and if the choice is not a comprehensible one, then choosing to stay in the Church is really no choice at all. If you can't imagine anything different, or any reason for wanting a different lifestyle, then I don't find the choice to stay to have much grounding.

I find that, in general, Mormons (and this goes for most conservative religions as well) only believe in free agency as far as they agree with the choices free agents make. The same goes for American Mormons and freedom of speech. They're happy to exercise the freedom to promote their own beliefs, but woe to the person who says a word against them.

I think you've probably made one of the more honest decisions about your religion of people I know. And I get the feeling you understand the choices I've made better than you let on.

Re: Wow

[phddilly.livejournal.com]

Chris, you can always subscribe to my flickr feed (http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?id=37666068@N00〈=en-us&format=rss_200)and get the pics without the commentary. ;-)

[frogworth.livejournal.com]

Please do take on Ben Stein! Woah, just read the link.